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matt g
Heavyweights Admin
South Sandwich Islands
1474 Posts |
 Posted - 07/11/2006 : 11:07:01 AM
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anyone ever read about this phenomenon, it is very interesting. it has been confirmed through science to exist, through verifiable reports of people who've came back and could in detail report what happened when they were " dead ". anyway my girlfriend did a course on it and it seemed very interesting.
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Son of Sevenless
I just Google everything...seriously.
China
4482 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2006 : 11:28:33 AM
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Anybody who has experimented with Ayahuasca can relate to these NDEs. This might be of interest:
"Several speculative and as yet untested hypotheses suggest that endogenous DMT, produced in the human brain, is involved in certain psychological and neurological states. As DMT is naturally produced in small amounts in the brains and other tissues of humans, and other mammals[1], some believe it plays a role in promoting the visual effects of natural dreaming, near-death experiences and other mystical states. A biochemical mechanism for this was proposed by the medical researcher JC Callaway, who suggested in 1988 that DMT might be connected with visual dream phenomena, where brain DMT levels are periodically elevated to induce visual dreaming and possibly other natural states of mind.[2]"
Some references:
1) "Potentially hallucinogenic 5-hydroxytryptamine receptor ligands bufotenine and dimethyltryptamine in blood and tissues." Scand J Clin Lab Invest. 2005;65(3):189-99.
Karkkainen J, Forsstrom T, Tornaeus J, Wahala K, Kiuru P, Honkanen A, Stenman UH, Turpeinen U, Hesso A.
Peijas Hospital, Helsinki University Central Hospital, Vantaa, Finland. jorma.karkkainen@helsinki.fi
Bufotenine and N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT) are hallucinogenic dimethylated indolethylamines (DMIAs) formed from serotonin and tryptamine by the enzyme indolethylamine N-methyltransferase (INMT) ubiquitously present in non-neural tissues. In mammals, endogenous bufotenine and DMT have been identified only in human urine. The DMIAs bind effectively to 5HT receptors and their administration causes a variety of autonomic effects, which may reflect their actual physiological function. Endogenous levels of bufotenine and DMT in blood and a number of animal and human tissues were determined using highly sensitive and specific quantitative mass spectrometric techniques. A new finding was the detection of large amounts of bufotenine in stools, which may be an indication of its role in intestinal function. It is suggested that fecal and urinary bufotenine originate from epithelial cells of the intestine and the kidney, respectively, although the possibility of their synthesis by intestinal bacteria cannot be excluded. Only small amounts of the DMIAs were found in somatic or neural tissues and none in blood. This can be explained by rapid catabolism of the DMIAs by mitochondrial monoamino-oxidase or by the fact that the dimethylated products of serotonin and tryptamine are not formed in significant amounts in most mammalian tissues despite the widespread presence of INMT in tissues.
2) "Altered consciousness states and endogenous psychoses: a common molecular pathway?" Schizophr Res. 1997 Dec 19;28(2-3):257-65.
Ciprian-Ollivier J, Cetkovich-Bakmas MG.
University of Buenos Aires, Department of Psychiatry, School of Medicine, Argentina.
Interest in the role of indolamines in the pathogenesis of psychoses has been renewed in recent years by the development of atypical antipsychotic drugs such as clozapine, olanzapine, and risperidone, which act on serotonin receptors. Discovery of the hallucinogenic compounds called methylated indolealkyalamines (MIAs) (e.g. N,N-dimethylserotonin, or bufotenin, and N,N-dimethyltryptamine, or DMT) led proponents of the transmethylation hypothesis of schizophrenia to theorize that through some inborn error of metabolism, serotonin or tryptamine might undergo the addition of extra methyl radicals, thereby forming MIAs with hallucinogenic properties. Various studies have attempted to detect the excretion of MIAs, especially DMT, in the body fluids of psychotic patients and normal controls. Some of these studies have demonstrated elevated MIA concentrations in psychotic patients, including those with schizophrenia, compared with normal persons, and others have not. A number of variables may account for these contradictory findings. The mechanism whereby the beverage ayahuasca, which is used in certain cure and divination rituals in the Amazon Basin, exerts its hallucinogenic effects may serve as a model to explain the mechanism underlying hallucinogenic symptoms in schizophrenia and may lend support to the transmethylation hypothesis. Certain studies suggest that specific perceptual disturbances manifested by schizophrenic patients could contribute to progressive deterioration and negative symptomatology. All these findings point to the need for further study of the neurophysiology of MIAs and their pathogenetic role in endogenous psychoses. |
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mtcollins
Heavyweights Moderator
Papua New Guinea
2029 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2006 : 11:31:03 AM
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Care to elaborate? What has been confirmed? That people have seen the afterlife? I'm really scepticle of this stuff honestly. As Rainjah said in a previous thread, it's amazing what the mind will see in order to make sense of a situation.
Also, how can a case report, experienced by only one individual, be confirmed/verified?
Not trying to give you a hard time... I'm actually interested in knowing where you're coming from and what science is behind it.
He who joyfully marches to music rank and file, has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action. It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder |
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matt g
Heavyweights Admin
South Sandwich Islands
1474 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2006 : 11:54:40 AM
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i never read the whole thing but someone used quantum psyhics to explain that there was no other possible explanation. i dont mind you giving me a hard time im bored anyways, plus i would like to hear peoples opinions and views. but how can you not use a case report? are you going to kill someone then bring them back in the lab to test to see if it is true, also what is the dependent and independent variables, what are you going to measure which proves that it exists.
the verifiable reports are reports from people who were labelled clinically dead and were being attended to, they could explain happenings in other rooms in the hospital as well as machines used to ressucitate them and what people said and were wearing, which then were verified by people in the room, near death experience is now mostly accepted by those in the scientific community based on the large number of cases and there similarity. what they dont know is why it happens.
i find the more you beleive science the less you beleive in things like this, if we cant test it, it cant be true, like the water thing, water and salt helped me but you think of a placebo for water in a double blind.
i read about twenty or so stories and all people described the exact same sequences or likeness of them. i am also very skeptical, but like other things you have to have faith that there is more to life then right now to beleive something like this. i think most people want to beleive there is more to life, if there wasn't why not kill, steal etc.. it makes no dif in the end.
i'll try to find some stuff for you to read but im sure im not going to find proof you seek or i seek for that matter.
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Son of Sevenless
I just Google everything...seriously.
China
4482 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2006 : 12:18:59 PM
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One of the things that has been postulated concerning DMT is release from the Pineal gland at the moment of medical death. Many people have experienced near-identical mystical and transcendent states of being under the influence of this drug when administered exogenously. For more academic research into the psychopharmacology and neurobiology of these and similar states, you should really check out DMT: The Spirit Molecule: A Doctor's Revolutionary Research into the Biology of Near-Death and Mystical Experiences by Rick Strassman.
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matt g
Heavyweights Admin
South Sandwich Islands
1474 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2006 : 12:28:46 PM
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interesting sos, however, most people when admistered drugs like this or ketamine do not undergo life altering changes like those involed in nde's. also, most people that exp. nde's show electornic device difficulty, in that watches stop etc.. when compared to a control group. Could this experience be some kind of psychological hallucina- tion or fantasy? Although the experience does have some profound psychological effects on the individual, such a perspective is often dismissed because of its intensity and the similarities across cultures with numerous people. Explaining the NDE as a kind of mass hallucination seems to be lacking in argumentative substance. There have been numerous accounts mentioning how those who have been physically incapable of adequate (or any) perception report various accurate depictions after their NDE. For example, one report tells of a woman who revealed she had an NDE while under the supervision at a hospital. Her story was considered preposterous fiction until she asked one of the staff about a tennis shoe on the outside ledge of an adjacent hallway. Out of curiosity, a staff member investigated the site she de- scribed and returned with the item of which the woman spoke. Each detail was accurate, even though there was no possible way the woman could have known there was a shoe on the ledge. Be- cause of actual physical discoveries that NDErs may notice and mention to others after the experience, the psychological per- spective has some competition with those who believe the experi- ence to be authentic.
SOS- if you wouldn't mind answering what is your personal opinion, i understand if you wish to not share your views, but i would be interested to know. i realize you've posted scientific evidence, but what are your views personally, do you beleive their to be a afterlife like in the nde or do you believe the chemical cascade in the brain to be the explanation. i kinda belive in both views if that is possible.
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matt g
Heavyweights Admin
South Sandwich Islands
1474 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2006 : 12:37:00 PM
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| oh ya,that was an interesting read sos, i would consider buying that book. so what he is suggesting is that dmt is the souls way of entering or leaving the body per se, do you own this book sos. |
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Son of Sevenless
I just Google everything...seriously.
China
4482 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2006 : 1:06:08 PM
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| I'm pretty comfortable with stating that I do believe in both transcendent and mystical states of awareness, but that I don't really buy into any religious notion of an 'afterlife'. That being said, I think that the scientific quantification or reduction of a state and the actual complexity of the experience of that state can exist in parallel. You can't describe 'away' experience through reductionism. I can describe consciousness as a 'quantity' in terms of glial and neural function, but that doesn't alter the fact that that same consciousness is still a 'quality' experienced by a sentient subject. |
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Son of Sevenless
I just Google everything...seriously.
China
4482 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2006 : 1:11:54 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by matt g
oh ya,that was an interesting read sos, i would consider buying that book. so what he is suggesting is that dmt is the souls way of entering or leaving the body per se, do you own this book sos.
What Strassman is saying is that concepts such as 'soul' and 'afterlife' emerged as a way to explain the strange states of awareness experienced through the release of these endogenous hallucinogens.
I'm pretty sure that the Health Sciences Library has a copy. |
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mtcollins
Heavyweights Moderator
Papua New Guinea
2029 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2006 : 1:22:16 PM
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quote:
the verifiable reports are reports from people who were labelled clinically dead and were being attended to, they could explain happenings in other rooms in the hospital as well as machines used to ressucitate them and what people said and were wearing, which then were verified by people in the room, near death experience is now mostly accepted by those in the scientific community based on the large number of cases and there similarity. what they dont know is why it happens.
That's the trouble with trying to "verify" something like this. As it's virtually impossible to study this in any traditional scientific method, we have to go on anecdotal evidence (personal experience). A case report is scientific, but the evidence provided is definately the weakest of any study method. This is especially true when considering dream-like states where perception of reality may be altered. Plus, we are not refering to a case report where objective data is collected (i.e. blood sample from an individual with a strange disease), but rather a case report based on an individual's perception of an event. Using such logic, alien abduction has also been scientifically verified.
Being able to explain their surroundings could be attributable to a paralytic state, similar to someone infected with paralytic red tide. For the record, I do not believe most scientists believe in this. Also, I do not believe the similarity of the cases has much merit. In an hallucinogenic near-death state, we may be prone to percieve our environment in accordance to expectations (i.e. see angles, white light ect.).
Then again, such individuals may indeed see the afterlife. Like I said Matt, not trying to bust your chops here. I'll be the first to admit that science has only touched the tip of the iceberg of what there is to know, and just because something has not been verified in a lab does not make it any less true.
SoS, you lost me on this one: "Potentially hallucinogenic 5-hydroxytryptamine receptor ligands bufotenine and dimethyltryptamine in blood and tissues." What's the reason behind pointing out non-neuronal roles of this compound?
This DMT story is interesting. Personally, I blame it on the CB1 receptor... lord knows I've seen a few strange things after activating that one 
He who joyfully marches to music rank and file, has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action. It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder |
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Son of Sevenless
I just Google everything...seriously.
China
4482 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2006 : 1:49:01 PM
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Just indicating tissue storage of endogenous hallucinogens, particularly dimethyltryptamine. This was debated until very recently, and is important for the 'released during dying' hypothesis.
DMT doesn't actually activate cannabinoid receptors. If anything, like LSD, it's serotonin and GABA mediated. It really isn't comparable to any common dissociatives or hallucingogens. Alexander Shulgin's work on tryptamines is the standard reference. |
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mtcollins
Heavyweights Moderator
Papua New Guinea
2029 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2006 : 3:25:31 PM
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Now I get ya about peripheral storage. Released during necrosis I take it? If so, I guess the method of death could be of importance regarding the amount of necrosis (as opposed to apoptosis)... or am I way off track?
The CB receptor thing was a (bad) joke. Just commenting that messing with neurophysiology affects perception... well... that and mildly advocating the use of illicit substances 
He who joyfully marches to music rank and file, has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action. It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder |
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Son of Sevenless
I just Google everything...seriously.
China
4482 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2006 : 5:19:58 PM
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No, I think you're exactly right...just remember that this is the PUTATIVE mechanism of release...we're not really sure. Cellular senescence seems to be critical.
Yeah, but I'VE done so many hallucinogens that I take everything literally, even metaphors. Deep. Think about it. LOL!! |
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BiggieSmalls
Heavyweights Addict
Canada
2749 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2006 : 5:23:49 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Son of Sevenless
Yeah, but I'VE done so many hallucinogens that I take everything literally, even metaphors. Deep. Think about it. LOL!!
Now it all makes sense to me.
__________
FreeIPODS
Biggies On Myspace
There are no unrealistic goals just unrealistic timelines.. |
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Coolhand
Puck slapping maplesucker
Canada
2669 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2006 : 6:35:26 PM
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i like cheese
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matt g
Heavyweights Admin
South Sandwich Islands
1474 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2006 : 6:58:15 PM
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"Being able to explain their surroundings could be attributable to a paralytic state, similar to someone infected with paralytic red tide. For the record, I do not believe most scientists believe in this. Also, I do not believe the similarity of the cases has much merit. In an hallucinogenic near-death state, we may be prone to percieve our environment in accordance to expectations (i.e. see angles, white light ect.)".
yes but what i am suggesting is that they had no way of perceiving there surroundings, without the sense organs functioning sense should be impossible, however these people clearly state things they saw while there eyes were closed, and there heart was stopped, stopped breathing. also, some talked about things not in there immediate envoiroment like the women with the shoe in the hall, there are numerous explanations i can think of logically that would undermine that statement, like she saw it on the way in, she heard someone say it, however, it is unlikely. i understand that chemical reactions occur in the brain during death but our measures of consciousness would tell use that person is unconscious, so in saying that even if chemical reactions it seems we still perceive maybe in an altered state because the mind is a product of the processes in the brain.
i just find it interesting that we know so little yet are so sure about this world. just like we cannot see ultrared or radio waves etc.. does not mean they are not there, perhaps other things are there that we do not see, im not using this as an argument, because it is neither here nor there and impossible to debate but as a point that, maybe were not smart enough to comprehend these things.
in all, this is a good discussion, something different. i find the smarter someone gets the more the question life etc.. |
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mtcollins
Heavyweights Moderator
Papua New Guinea
2029 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2006 : 8:12:47 PM
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quote:
Yeah, but I'VE done so many hallucinogens that I take everything literally, even metaphors. Deep. Think about it. LOL!!
So if a tree falls in the forest... on a groundhog...
Matt, I definately hear what you're saying. Honestly, if we understood it all there would be no need for future science. And in human sciences, those that are neurologically based are by far the least understood. Perhaps telepathy is another possible explanation for the phenomena you've explained? Not trying to discredit the theory, just the "science" supporting the theory lol.
He who joyfully marches to music rank and file, has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action. It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder |
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matt g
Heavyweights Admin
South Sandwich Islands
1474 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2006 : 8:48:35 PM
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| i also agree with what your saying just that the possibility that it exists is an idea i'd like to believe, like most others, both sides of the argument are good, however, true to the nature of science the scientific explanation seems more valid and reliable. |
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Yngwie
Heavyweights Moderator
Canada
2782 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2006 : 9:48:43 PM
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I am too lazy to read all of that in detail right now. I read an interesting book by Kenneth Ring while I was a psych major many years ago called the Omega Project. He draws some very interesting correlations and psychological similarities between NDE's and UFO abduction cases. He proposes some interesting ideas on encounter prone personalities, etc. I thought it was a really interesting book once you get into a later half.
---There is always the next pound....--- |
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near death experiences
